نقاش:ألف-به مصرى لاتينى/ارشيف 1
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could you please set your examples in egyptian words rather than english words it is a little bit confusing especially when it comes to the vowels, like i do not see the difference between e and a it would be very helpful if you add two more columns to the right, one for egyptian words/examples and one for remarks i.e. long vowels or short phonemes etc. --ramsis 13:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Egyptian examples added. --Mamduh 22:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- şokren --ramsis 22:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- That would be "şokran" ya ramsis, because its like the "u" in "run". The "E" is used for the sound of fat7a in "دم" for example. Do you see the difference? --Mamduh 09:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
- I have started making some entries to the Masri Wiktionary using both Latin alphabet and arabic alphabet
i would appreciate your contribution and revision of the latin virsion thanks--ramsis1978 21:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
- I corrected a few mistakes, but overall it looks great! You can try to take a look at the corrected version to note things like the different versions of the definite article (il), which can also be ic, id, ig, ij, ik, in, ir, is, iş, it, or iz, depending on the word following it. also if the word preceding it ends with a vowel, you remove the "i" in il, ic, id, etc, and connect both words. For example: فى الجاراچ would be written this way: "fi-g garaaj". You should do your best to write it closest to how it's actually pronounced. --Mamduh 22:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Rules
Thank you for revising the Latin entries in the Egyptian Wiktionary, we have both seen that although the Letters were quite easy, combining them in words and sentences is not an easy task at all and is subject to individual variations and misinterpretations. I would suggest summarizing these rules you have outlined above, together with any other guidelines, in a separate page to serve as a Latin version of إزاي تكتب في ويكييبديا مصر In addition, I still believe in simplifying the writing system after all, writing is a means of communication and the easier it is, the better it is in serving its purpose.
- combining the definite article with the following words makes some sense, it is better representing the spoken Egyptian language and it is common in other languages like French ( l’amore).
- On the other hand, combining the definite article with the preceding word if it ends in a vowel, is unprecedented in current Arabic writing system, complicates the brand new Latin writing system, and spoil word-to-word parallelism between spoken and written forms of the languages.
- Using the ma(word)sh form of negation is easier and faster to read if we would segregate it to be ma word sh ( I mean three separate words)
( compare ne (word ) pas in French)
- Adjectives, while current Arabic writing system annex the adjectives to the nouns, I think it is in appropriate to keep this same perplexing feature.
Exp. بيتها could be easier if write it as بيت ها and likewise Beetha would be more suitable if it is written as beet ha Looking forward to your contributions and comment thanks --ramsis1978 07:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC).
- Dear Ramsis, I appreciate your thoughts about certain rules about the usage of this alphabet. This alphabet is still being developed, so it is still in the process of addition and removal. I just added a new combination of letters, that is "ae", for a specific sound of the Aleph that needed its own combination. As for the definite article proposition that you gave: in fact, it's not really a matter of how it "looks" as much as it is a matter of how it is "pronounced". In French, there are three definite articles, le, la, and les, but in French, if the word following the definite article starts with a vowel (bearing in mind the fact that "le" and "la" also end with vowels), then they are obliged to remove the "e" and the "a" in le/la, and connect it to the following word with an apostrophe (e.g. l'amour). But in our case, we have only one definite article, that is il, which starts with a vowel, not ends with a vowel as in the French example. What tends to happen in daily usage of Egyptian, is that if the word preceding "il" ends with the vowel, we pronounce the two words connected as if they were one word, ommitting the i in il. That is why in the proposed alphabet, we do things as they are done in real life, that is omitting the i in il and connecting the words with a dash. Also, in our daily usage of the language, which is probably affected by the Arabic rule of Qamari/Shamsi letters, the L in il tends to change to the first letter of the word following it, when that word starts with certain letters. The basic rule of the alphabet is this easy: simply write down what you pronounce, nothing more, nothing less. With your knowledge of the special letter combinations (aa, ae, ee, ii), you are set to be able to read and write it, simply the way you pronounce it. --Mamduh 11:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- could not agree more with you regarding il
however, i would like to keep the debate going on by re-suggesting the use of letter J to represent the sound خ i know you have made your point clear in a previous TALK when you said it is reseved for three dotted Geem. ya Mamduh, how many words in egyptian language that might make use of this foreign phoneme? apart from a dozen of loan words from frnech (i.e jeeba) and italian (jilati) and english (jerkin), i don't know any more examples i mean this JEEM is an arabic phoneme and never was really egyptianized we do have our own coresponding Egyptian phoneme the cairene Geem. on the other hand, how many egyptian words would make use of this letter J when it will be used to represnet the letter خ ? ten of thousands!!
- letter P is certainly a foregin letter that represent a foreign sound, in your page of protostant, you have used P, we both knwo that every Egyptian pronounce it as Brotostant not protostant. even oroppa is not a true represntation of the egyptian word (OROBBA) is much more consistent with egyptian language and words.
- the vowels:
- perhaps we could make use of the UMLAUT in order to differentiate between short and loogn vowels because for me , i would prefer to use one letter (with umlaut) to using two letters to represent one sound.
example:ee in the current proposal could be replaced by Ä/ ä.
- feen (where) would be fän
i am sure if you agree with me on the principle of one letter/one sound correspondance, then we will figure out a way to make the latin alphabet a little bit more easier. thanks --ramsis1978 22:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ramsis, your A-Umlaut suggestion makes a lot of sense. As for J and P, if we will use the J for خ, we still need something to write down جورج, if at least some letter combination that wouldnt interfere with the structure of the alphabet. It would be interesting if you can give your thoughts about this. --Mamduh 11:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- ونتعلم الأبجديه الي حضرتك مخترعها ليه؟
وبعدين أنا نفسي أفهم الإخوة هنا بيكتبوا انجليزي ليه؟ حضرتك محدش هيتعلم الأبجدية الي انت مخترعها دي ، وعيش لوحدك داري جرحك في العذاب ، ولو بصيت علي شعار الموقع اللطيف بتاعك هتلاقي مكتوب اكتب بطريقة أي مصر يعرف يقراها ، وبالتالي الي انت بتعمله ده تخريف وكلام فاضي ، عايز تهرتل هرتل براحتك إنما ما تحاولش تقنعني إن الهرتلة بتاعتك قانون.
- حضرتك مش لازم تتعلم حاجة خالص، وبعدين الويكيبيديا المصري مكتوبة فعلن بطريقة أي مصري يعرف يقراها، وفي شوية صغيرة من المقالات منها نسخ بالأبجدية اللاتيني اللي مش عاجبة حضرتك. وأنا مش شايف أي هرتلة في فكرة الأبجدية اللاتيني، لأن مش انا أول مصري يفكر في الفكرة دي، بس أنا قلت يا عم بدل ما نتكلم ونتكلم ونتكلم عن الفكرة، ناخد خطوة عملية ونطور أبجدية لاتيني للغة المصري الجديدة اللي بيسموها عربي مصري. مش مصر أول بلد تطرح الفكرة دي، عندك مالطا مثال عملي على ما يسمى بلهجة عربية لاكن مكتوبة بأبجدية لاتيني خاصة بيهم هما، وبردو في قوميين لبنانيين بيطورو أبجدية لاتيني خاصة بلغتهم المسماة باللهجة العربية اللبنانية. وزي ما انت شايف احنا بناخد وندي في الموضوع مع بعض للوصول لأفضل شكل للأبجدية دي، يعني الموضوع بعيد كل البعد عن ابتغاء أي مجد شخصي أو تعليم المصريين هرتلة أو ترويج لهرتلة. المفروض نتعلم نشجع الإبداعات الجديدة بدل ما نحبطها، بس شكرن على تعليق حضرتك. --Mamduh 11:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
more suggestions
- would you please add umlauted O (Ö), this new letter will serve as a long O in FÖX ( فوق) and MÖZ (موز) , that particular umlauted O will be of paramount imprtance in differntating between these pairs of words ZÖX and ZOX ( manners and Push )BÖN and BON ( token and coffee).
- to replace AE combination with Á/á to have one letter to represent one sound ex. Benaet ( girls) to become Benát.
i Have added some more enteries in the Egytptian Wiktionary in Arabic and some more in latin alphabet..your valuble input and revision is highly appreciated. thank you--Ramsis II 20:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
إقتراحات لل تسهيل
إزا إستـَعملنا المَصرى ب حروف لاتينى. و فى نـَفس الوأت، هَـتبءا مألوفة. و أنا حاولت أشُوف كل المُـتاح من الحُروف اللاتينى اليونى-كۏد[1]، و حاولت أطبّأهُ علىٰ النُطء المصرى۔
الحروف الواءفة
- ب = b B ---
- ج = g G ---
- ك = k K ---
- ل = l L ---
- م = m M ---
- ن = n N ---
- ف = f F ---
- ر = r R ---
- د = d D ---
- هـ = h H ---
- ح = ħ Ħ --- أو [ ϩ Ϩ *] ح Ϩ
- ز = z Z ---
- ظ = ż Ż
- ت = t T ---
- ط = ṫ Ṫ أو [ ŧ Ŧ ]
- س = s S ---
- ص = ṡ Ṡ
- ش = š Š أو [ ŝ Ŝ ] أو [ ϣ Ϣ *]ده حرف قبطى
- أنا حاولت أنحاز لل نُطق المصرى عشان مانستخدمش حروف متعدلة كتير
- * = معناها إن ده حرف قبطى
- --- = معناه إن ده حرف متّاخد من الحروف الدوليه الصۏتيه
- ǎǍ ěĚ ǒǑ ḋḊ ɛƐ ɣƔ ǧǦ ğĞ ĝĜ jJ ĵĴ ǰJ̌ ȟȞ ĥĤ ḣḢ ǩǨ řŘ ȓȒ ŝŜ ƹƸ ʒƷ ǯǮ žŽ ẑẐ cC ċĊ čČ ĉĈ
- لازم تكون البراوزر بتاعتك متجددة، عشان تضمن إن كل الحروف دى تبان
- أو لو مش قادر تجددها، إزاى تبيـّـن كل الحروف
الحروف الـمتحرّكة
- "الواو التقيلة الطويلة فى كلمة "مـحمود = u U ---
- الياء التقيلة الطويلة فى كلمة "إبراهيم"۔ = i I ---
- الكسرة = e E ---
- الضمة = o O ---
- الفتحة = a A
- ***مـمكن نستـَغنا عن اللألِف التخينة, زى فى كلمة "ماما", لإن لغتنا أبجدية مش ألفابائية, (يعنى بنركز فى نُطئنا علىٰ الحروف الواءفة). يعنى الحرف هيبئا مالوش لازمة و مُزعج فى الكتابة۔
الحروف اللى بـێـن البـيـنين
- الواو فى بداية الكلمة، زى كلمة واحد = w W ---
- الياء فى بداية الكلمة، زى كلمة "ياسـمين" = y Y
--Dudi 04:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
مقالات مُساعدة
سؤال
هو الجدول بتاع الحروف اللي موجود علىٰ الصفحة، نفس الجدول اللي كان في الإقتراح بتاع سنة 1948؟
يارێت ألائي إجابة بسرعة....
- انا بصراحة مش عارف يا دودي بس شخصيا ما بعتقدش ان هي دي الابجدية اللي اقترحها على الجارم في الاربعينات، الابجدية دي عملها ممدوح و هي بتشبه بشكل كبير الابجدية المالطي و شكرا
Very nice
Thanks Mamdouh for the initiative I've been thinking about this idea for 13 years, i wrote many models about it, i also developed a lot of solutions to overcome the difficulties of pronouncing many words, i see it is very close to the modern Turkish alphabet, I speak Turkish and Arabic fluently by the way, I'd like to discuss some issues about your proposal, also i suggest a meeting for all interested in it, to gather, talk, and i am sure we can find a way/ways to spread it. Atatürk replaced Arabic letters with Latin letter in 1928, i.e.eighty years ago, maybe we can change sometihng, who knows? :) ۔نقاش المستخدم:196.29.161.82
- Please, visit this page ملاحظات مهمة. --Mahmudmasri ٢٠:٥٢، ٢٩ نوفمبر ٢٠٠٨ (UTC)
4 T, t Té 1. T in toe - 2. T in Tarik (Arabic name) - 3. T in telata (EF three) ت فى تربيزه - ت فى تلاته - ط فى طارق
المفروض انها تكون Tarix نقاش المستخدم:196.205.120.157
المستخدم:213.6.247.61 عمل الجدول ده
| الحرف العربي | الحرف اللاتيني | نظام IPA | لفظ الحرف |
| ا | A a | / a / | A |
| ب | B b | / b / | Bé |
| پ | P p | / p / | Pé |
| ت | T t | / t / | Té |
| ث | S s | / s / | Sé |
| ج | C c | / ʤ / | Cé |
| ح | Ĥ ĥ | / ħ / | Ĥé |
| خ | X x | / x / | Xé |
| د | D d | / d / | Dé |
| ذ | Z z | / z / | Zé |
| ر | R r | / r / | Ré |
| ز | Z z | / z / | Zé |
| س | S s | / s / | Sé |
| ش | Ŝ ŝ | / ʃ / | Ŝé |
| ص | Š š | / sˤ / | Šé |
| ض | Ď ď | / dˤ / | Ďé |
| ط | Ť ť | / tˤ / | Ťé |
| ظ | Z z | / z / | Zé |
| ع | Ħ ħ | / ʕ / | Ħé |
| غ | Ĝ ĝ | / ɣ / | Ĝé |
| ڠ | G g | / g / | Gé |
| ف | F f | / f / | Fé |
| ق | Q q | / q / | Qé |
| ك | K k | / k / | Ké |
| ل | L l | / l / | Lé |
| م | M m | / m / | Mé |
| ن | N n | / n / | Né |
| ه | H h | / h / | Hé |
| و | O o . V v | / o . w / | Vé |
| ي | I i . Y y | / i . j / | Yé
|
A B C D Ď E F G Ĝ H I K L M N O P Q R S Ŝ Š T Ť V X Y Z
مثال: Izayek ya ĥelov.